Absolutely Insane Intercooler Idea

"Sally O'Broder" (KojiroT)
09/24/2014 at 23:12 • Filed to: car booze, insane, intercooler, ethanol, e85

Guys guys guys!

IDEA:

For those who aren't aware, E85 can have some atomization issues at lower temps as it runs cooler to begin with. This would solve that problem. It also should cool the intake air better!

THOUGHTS?!

DISCUSSION (50)

Vince-The Roadside Mechanic > Sally O'Broder
09/24/2014 at 23:15

But then you have another flammable liquid in the engine bay with potential for boom.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > Sally O'Broder
09/24/2014 at 23:16

Water will work better.

StoneCold > Sally O'Broder
09/24/2014 at 23:17

wait, so don't you want it warmer to have a larger volume/atomization?

or am i freshman chemistrying this conversation?

Sally O'Broder > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
09/24/2014 at 23:18

Why? Also, wouldn't the added heat help with the ethanol's atomization?

On top of that, the ethanol would be constantly flowing to be used up in the combustion chamber, as opposed to running water which - while better able to hold heat - will continually be absorbing it, itself needing to be cooled.

Bad Idea Hat > Vince-The Roadside Mechanic
09/24/2014 at 23:18

This.

Sounds like making a gasoline engine with the runaway potential of a diesel.

Racescort666 > Sally O'Broder
09/24/2014 at 23:19

I'm not sure I follow. Is this on a turbocharged/supercharged engine? It's already agreed that E85 works better on boosted engines (because the intake temperature is higher than NA) so I don't know how an intercooler would help.

Or are you saying that we should inject the fuel before the intercooler?

Also, what do you mean by "[E85] runs cooler to begin with"?

edit: grammar.

Sally O'Broder > StoneCold
09/24/2014 at 23:19

The intercooler would be cooling the hot compressed air from forced induction while also heating the ethanol!

Sally O'Broder > Vince-The Roadside Mechanic
09/24/2014 at 23:19

...and?

EL_ULY > Sally O'Broder
09/24/2014 at 23:20

debris puts holes in condensors and radiators all the time... if you can get air flow without a chance of a puncture (leading to a big boom even in a minor fender bender) it is plossible :]

Sally O'Broder > Racescort666
09/24/2014 at 23:21

This would be some kind of engine with boost. I'm researching for my E85 conversions.

What I meant about the E85 is that it runs cooler than gasoline.

Sally O'Broder > EL_ULY
09/24/2014 at 23:23

Why would puncture be as much as a concern from filtered air? Wouldn't anything that would puncture a liquid intercooler also run the chance of puncturing the fuel line?

Racescort666 > Sally O'Broder
09/24/2014 at 23:24

Runs cooler how? Takes more heat (energy) to vaporize? Somehow when you put E85 in your gas tank it's colder than regular gasoline?

Edit: I read some of the other comments and you're talking about pre-heating the fuel with the charge air. (I think) While this could work in theory, you have to do the same thing when the fuel is vaporized when injected into the intake stream. It basically does the same thing without the added complexity.

Vince-The Roadside Mechanic > Sally O'Broder
09/24/2014 at 23:25

Debris that can puncture intercoolers + intercoolers filled with E85 = possible boom leading to fiery death.

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > Sally O'Broder
09/24/2014 at 23:27

Or you could just wrap the fuel line around a radiator hose a few times before it gets to the injectors.

Sally O'Broder > Racescort666
09/24/2014 at 23:29

I'm having difficulty with all of the math behind it, but my comprehension is that yes, it is "colder" than regular gasoline in general and would be so while running through the fuel line; however this is not where it is necessarily "colder" when discussing what happens inside of an engine. Where it gets that property from is that it requires more heat in order to vaporize as well as the way that it burns, meaning less heat running through your engine. This is why you need to advance your timing as well as run hotter spark plugs in order to get any benefit from ethanol without running engines with forced induction.

Something something physics something methanol something something hydrogen atoms something something racecar.

ZiptieMcBumper > Sally O'Broder
09/24/2014 at 23:30

The BAD kind of boom.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > Sally O'Broder
09/24/2014 at 23:30

Water has a specific heat of 1, ethanol is 0.65. This means that water can take more heat before rising in temperature, making it better for cooling. The whole purpose of an intercooler is to cool down the hot air post compressing, so if you make the intercooler less effective, then you are defeating its purpose.

Sally O'Broder > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent
09/24/2014 at 23:30

Yeah, but what about cooling the air?

Sally O'Broder > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
09/24/2014 at 23:32

Alright; I will give you the specific heat then. However, what about the fuel being consumed in the process, vs water that must be cooled and recirculated?

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > Sally O'Broder
09/24/2014 at 23:40

Takes hardly any power for a water pump.

Sally O'Broder > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
09/24/2014 at 23:45

True, but I refer specifically to the need to get the heat out of the water.

Racescort666 > Sally O'Broder
09/24/2014 at 23:48

Ok, you are talking about vaporization energy.

Ethanol has a much higher energy requirement for vaporization that gasoline (octane) some data can be found here . When you inject fuel into the intake stream, it gets vaporized and when it vaporizes, it takes energy from it's surrounding environment, the intake charge, and cools it down. This is the same process that keeps your body cool when you sweat. As temperature increases, this energy requirement goes down, which is I think where you're going.

The problem is that you still need energy to heat up the fuel from fuel rail temperature to the point where it will spontaneously vaporize in the intake charge. There is already a lot of heat in the intake charge so I don't see the benefit of the added complexity.

tromoly > Sally O'Broder
09/24/2014 at 23:50

The E85 is NOT colder than Gasoline in the physical sense, it doesn't magically feel "cold" when in the fuel lines. The exothermic energy produced is less than that of Gasoline, that's why it burns "colder".

tromoly > Racescort666
09/24/2014 at 23:51

Basically that's it, run a heavier injector to compress the fuel mixture more, raising pressure and temperature to aid in the atomization.

tromoly > Sally O'Broder
09/24/2014 at 23:52

Run a heavier injector to compress the mixture more, raises temperature and pressure, aiding in atomization of the fuel in the intake where it actually matters. That's what people have done for years. Simple.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > Sally O'Broder
09/24/2014 at 23:55

Would that result in a better atomization? or would significant amounts start coating the inside of all the tubing? I would imagine that might throe the Fuel /air ratio off.

Also Intecoolers tend to get crushed in accidents, whereas fuel lines are usually kept way back near the firewall.

Sam > Sally O'Broder
09/24/2014 at 23:59

Or, you could run your fuel lines next to the manifold. Does E85 vapor-lock like gas, though?

Sally O'Broder > Sam
09/25/2014 at 00:06

It can certainly vapor-lock, yes.

Sam > Sally O'Broder
09/25/2014 at 00:09

Hm, maybe you could run a system wherein the lines run INSIDE the intercooler hoses, inside the hot coolant? You can't really run it as coolant, because of it's limited cooling capacity, but it would still wick away some heat.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > Sally O'Broder
09/25/2014 at 00:10

That's the radiator

Sally O'Broder > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
09/25/2014 at 00:14

Correct, but why add the additional heat into that system when you could basically just dispose of it using the fuel system?

Sally O'Broder > tromoly
09/25/2014 at 00:15

I'm aware of the basics, this is just an idea to get more use out of what's already there.

EL_ULY > Sally O'Broder
09/25/2014 at 00:16

different location really. An intercooler would be in a much higher air flow rate usually in the front of the vehicle instead of running along the unibody or frame and usually covered by something.

Sally O'Broder > EL_ULY
09/25/2014 at 00:17

True, but this is a liquid intercooler!

Sally O'Broder > Sam
09/25/2014 at 00:18

Can you rephrase?

EL_ULY > Sally O'Broder
09/25/2014 at 00:20

so.... no fan if stationary for a long time?

Sally O'Broder > EL_ULY
09/25/2014 at 00:24

If you're stationary, I'd expect that you also wouldn't be running any boost and wouldn't have any need for a fan.

Edit: This is what the A2"W"(ater) intercooler looks like .

EL_ULY > Sally O'Broder
09/25/2014 at 00:39

welp, by the end, the difference would be minimal compared to leaving it alone. I say try it. That universal cooler is pretty dang awesome!

Squid > Sally O'Broder
09/25/2014 at 02:26

While a novel idea, I just don't think the risk of having ethanol run through an intercooler at the front of a vehicle would be too wise. It could work on a top mount setup, but you still run the issue of residual vapor being left in the cooler along with the issue of corrosion of the aluminum core. Really you should just run higher fuel pressure and different injectors and if you want to cool the air more, you could treat it like a methanol/water injection system.

Too much shit flies at radiators and front mounts to ever want anything more than air flowing through that big pressurized vessel waiting for a rock or some metal to puncture it. I can envision the fireballs now and all the lawsuits if a company did this. It is best to keep the flammables as protected as much as possible.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > Sally O'Broder
09/25/2014 at 08:41

Because you are not adding that much heat into the system.

Sally O'Broder > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
09/25/2014 at 09:34

At 30-something pounds of boost?

Sally O'Broder > Squid
09/25/2014 at 09:40

This is what such a cooler would look like.

I was actually thinking of an almost side-mount setup. Since this is an A2W cooler, there's no reason to run it at the front of the car.

One of my vehicles is a teeny tiny 1.5, and there's tons of room under the hood to fit things.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > Sally O'Broder
09/25/2014 at 09:43

Where are you going to be running 30psi? But even then, it doesn't gain much heat in a liquid-air intercooler.

Sally O'Broder > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
09/25/2014 at 09:45

I may or may not wind up twincharging something for the hell of it, and I am going to screw up the math on it and run about that much.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > Sally O'Broder
09/25/2014 at 09:55

Make sure whatever it is that you're trying to run that much boost on has substantially upgraded internals. And at that much boost, you're going to want to run very high octane gas.

Sally O'Broder > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
09/25/2014 at 10:07

If I can get my hands on the fuel injectors, then it will totally be able to handle it.

Also duh on the gas, that's what the Car Booze is for!

Nick, Drives a Cobalt LT > Sally O'Broder
09/25/2014 at 11:12

so your idea is trying to warm up e85?

why not use a tank warmer a blanket on the tank with some sort of warming element to just get it to an acceptable temp? thats safer and smarter than running something flammable on an intercooler which is fragile

trust me ive blown end tanks off intercoolers multiple times

Sally O'Broder > Nick, Drives a Cobalt LT
09/25/2014 at 11:27

It would both warm up the E85 and cool the air in one swoop.

tromoly > Sally O'Broder
09/25/2014 at 11:51

You'd get nothing out of it. The losses to pump fuel through the intercooler would far outweight any gains from a "hotter" fuel going into the injectors. You'd be doing more for zero gain, it's not in the slightest worth it.

Nick, Drives a Cobalt LT > Sally O'Broder
09/25/2014 at 13:26

itd take a lot of fuel to pull a measurable amount of heat from the air better off using a blanket on the fuel tank and water meth to cool the air